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Saturday, 29 October 2011

Violent criminals are not Goth: a defence of Goth culture

In Snohomish, USA, a fifteen-year-old girl, described by witnesses as 'Goth', has been arrested for attempted murder after viciously attacking two schoolmates in the bathroom of their high school, stabbing them repeatedly with a kichen knife in a display of unprovoked violence.

The story is shocking. And sadly, it is not the first time that violent, even horrific, crimes have been connected - I believe in the overwhelming majority of cases wrongly - with the Goth subculture.

Whilst I am as alarmed by this attack as anyone else and have no wish to offend anyone, and my thoughts are with the victims and their families (both girls are severely injured but alive, although one is in critical condition), I would like to have an opportunity to defend the Goth community against its unwilling connection with such crimes.


I do not wish to give the impression that all Goths are candidates for sainthood. The fact is that Goths are people, and as such are as prone to mistakes, bad judgement, unkindness, unpleasantness and, yes, criminal behaviour as any other human being. I don't deny that there are a very small minority of Goths who have and do commit crimes; yes, there are letters in Gothic Beauty Magazine that were written in a prison cell.

However, the bloody and violent crimes most commonly attributed to Goths are not only the most unlikely of crimes to be committed by members of a group whom, by and large, could be described as intelligent, well-educated, creative and thoughtful but have rarely, if ever, been proved to have been committed by actual Goths, as opposed to those who listen to loud, aggressive music or display a penchant for black clothing, which doesn't automatically make a person 'Goth'. 

Take the well-documented example of the Columbine Massacre, when two trenchcoat-wearing industrial metal fans committed an atrocity that shocked millions. Goths worldwide suffered abuse as fallout from this act, but Harris and Klebold did not consider themselves members of the Goth subculture. The sole connections, hyped by a hysterical media, was their fandom of Rammstein (reasonably popular amongst Goths, but not a Goth band, and also enjoyed by members of several other alternative subcultures), and the wearing of black coats. Pretty much everyone owns a black coat. These examples absolutely do not make the Columbine killers Goth. They were not Goths. But it was Goths who were treated with spite and suspicion following the horrendous act of two stupid boys.

There are other examples. The tragic deaths of Jens Martin Dietz, Jodi Jones, and Karina Barduchian all have equally tenuous links with the Goth scene. I firmly believe that anyone with decent working knowledge of Goth culture would be able to see that the perpetrators of these crimes are 'goth' only by way of stereotypes and misconceptions.

The Jodi Jones case
Fourteen-year-old Jodi was allegedly murdered by her boyfriend Luke Mitchell in 2003 (Mitchell has never confessed but was convicted by jury in 2005. He has since appealed against his conviction.). Both dressed in Goth-style clothing and described themselves as Goth; however a closer look shows that Mitchell was in fact a fan of rock and metal music such as Marilyn Manson and Nirvana and had no knowledge of 'proper' Goth culture. Mitchell was a heavy cannabis user; yet many tabloids covering the case ignored this fact in relation to the murder and instead preferred to focus on his 'involvement' with a 'spooky Goth cult'.

The Jens Dietz case
Jens Martin Dietz, also 14, died in 1997 after falling into a diabetic coma at a house party hosted by a teenager described as 'Goth'. Allegedly the 'Goth' teenagers at the party ignored the signs of trouble after Dietz ran out of insulin, and when he fell unconscious did not call an ambulance or the police but dragged him into the garage and put him in the back seat of the family car, where they left him.

Dietz died. The partyers gathered in the garage 'to look at the body' where they apparently placed some sort of medallion on his chest and held 'a howling ritual'. (?!) Dietz's death only came to light when an older relative of one of the kids discovered the body.

Goth culture came under some scrutiny following this case due to the bizarre-ness of the teens' behaviour, and because Dietz's mother, Brenda Patterson, insisted that her son's friends 'let him die, because they were Gothic'.

However, further investigation revealed that there had in fact been a non-'Goth' adult present the entire time, who surely would be at least equally to blame for the child's death as a bunch of obviously stupid kids? Drug use (again, cannabis) had also been going on at the party, which possibly had an influence on the teens' extraordinarily weird behaviour. There is absolutely no proof that these teens were actually Goth, and frankly I highly doubt it, although they may have styled themselves as such in ignorance of genuine Goth culture. If someone were to fall unconscious at a Goth club or party, there would be no 'ritual' nonsense and an ambulance would very swiftly be called.

The Karina Barduchian case
Sixteen-year-old Goth Karina Barduchian was murdered and, horrifically, eaten, by two men who also styled themselves as Goth. Images of the murderers in this case show them smeared with badly-applied heavy corpse-paint-style make-up, generally regarded as a faux pas amongst Goths. One of them is wearing a Cradle of Filth neckband - again, not a band associated with the Goth subculture. However, one of them stands in front of a poster of The Cure's Robert Smith.

But, whilst one of the murderers in this case may have had some knowledge of Goth culture, so too did the victim, who clearly was not in any way disturbed or deranged, indicating that this sick crime was carried out by sick men, who would have been a threat to people around them whether they were 'Goth' or not, no matter what music they listened to or what clothes they wore.

This case has echoes of another disgusting crime taking place in Russia, wherein a gang of devil worshippers (again, not 'real' Goths) murdered and ate four young Goths.

The perpetrators of these crimes are categorically NOT Goth. They are described as such on basis of appearance by people who have little knowledge of Goth culture and therefore don't know any better. The Russian killers, whilst they may have had some knowledge of 'real' Goth, were likely to have been rejected by their local Goth communities due to their satanic posturing and giving themselves names like 'Hitler', which would not be accepted by other, real, Goths.

As an example, on Goth forums all over the internet, idiots occasionally pretend to be Goths so that they can 'fit in' on the forum long enough to taunt the other forum members and play 'weirdo-baiting'. These people often come unstuck because they assume that bragging about violence or death will make them accepted by Goths, but they are given short shrift by forum members and admin. Goths have no tolerance at all for unprovoked violence and even less for disgusting crimes such as those outlined above. Goth communities, online or in the physical world, do not open their arms to people who are violent or psychotically unstable.

It's sad that the Goth community is judged by the public over crimes such as these. Violence is in no way a part of Goth culture. I wish that the media and public understood the difference between severely disturbed people who wear black, and actual Goths, 99.9% of whom are well-balanced, well-adjusted, 'normal' people.

Witnesses describe the perpetrator of this latest attack as 'Goth'. I'm willing to bet that, though she may describe herself as such, though she may wear black clothes and make-up, we'll discover she's either ignorant of genuine Goth culture or unaccepted by the friendly, polite, harmless group of local Goths because of bizarre posturing or behaviour.

I ask that readers judge the actions of one obviously disturbed girl as those of an individual, and not allow them to reflect on our entire community.

47 comments:

Buckbeak The Pegasus said...

Wonderfully written, a perfect defence for gothic culture vs. pseudo-gothic crime. Its still sickening that people can so easily believe a crime is goth because the perpetrator is 'goth' as opposed to any drug activity or, in the columbine and Karina Barduchian cases, disturbed individuals who needed help (or, in the latter, may have been beyond help).

† Lamentful Miss † said...

Some of the people murdered were... ugh... eaten! :O But it's not a "new" thing, here in my country, a man was murdered and eaten by another drunk man. :S

Anyway, good article, Amy. :)

† Lamentful Miss † said...

That girl (and all of that people who use the goth culture to make crimes and that nasty things) is an perfect disturbed idiot! And... I'm afraid to go to the university next year because of that incidents... >_<'

Regina Zee said...

I wonder what people would say if these [clearly unhinged] individuals "looked normal". Would jeans and t-shirts become 'signs' of mental instability? Would the media warn us all from people wearing tracksuits and baseball caps? I honestly doubt it.

I don't advocate these horrible deeds, not even one bit.
However, I definitely disapprove of how these reports latch onto the facts that these criminals "wore black" and had a certain taste in music, as if criminals have dress codes and a "collective" musical taste; all while completely ignoring the facts that some of these people are mentally unstable or were acting under the influence of something; or maybe both.

Personally, I see it as a way for people to calm themselves; a kind of unrealistic, false reassurance.

Generally speaking, any person is capable of monstrous acts such as the ones described in this article [social conduct and mental stability usually prevent people from actually doing anything of the sort].
This fact is, understandably, quite unnerving, so people choose to "categorize" criminals [and generally unstable individuals] as "people who wear black and listen to Marilyn Manson", thus falsely reassuring themselves that they can "detect" craziness just by appearance.

This way of thinking creates stereotypes; in this case, it's the "evil, Satan-worshiping, inhuman Goth"; and as a result, these falsely reassured [and, dare I say, delusional] people allow themselves to pick on completely normal individuals who just happen to have an appearance that matches the stereotype that they created in their minds.

This just shows how simple the human mind can be. Quite sad, if you ask me. :\

[/unnecessarily long comment]

Dark Fantomzy said...

I totally agree with Regina Zee. Any individual, regardless of background, is capable of commiting a crime. Dressing differently does not make one "more violent", otherwise we'd have to be cautious of clowns and mimes :P

But these crimes really do make me sad and angry. Whether they know it or not, these people make it harder for kids to dress differently in schools or elsewhere, because then they're labeled as "dangerous" because of these careless actions.

Ugh, these crimes are just sick. My prayers are with the victims and their families.

clockwork girl said...

I agree with the above comments, everyone can commit a crime, and when 'normal' people do, they don't blame it on their clothes or music taste. Buts its easy enough to put an entire subculture to blame, for the actions of a few people -.-

Anonymous said...

I have a few things I disagree with on this post. And before I start, just remember I still love you Amy. xD

1. The cannabis thing. I don't care if you're for/against drug use, you NEED to have your facts straight before saying certain things about it. It wouldn't influence the crimes. (The way I read it, you were saying so, but maybe I misread and it was the media xD) --I'm a goth pot smoker since age twelve.

2. I know a goth or two that actually like violence. Violence is in all subcultures, sadly.

Anonymous said...

I forgot to mention~
The Union is a wonderful documentary about cannabis, with proven facts!

Nightwind said...

I think Regina Zee's comment really gets to the heart of the matter. People need reassurance, and by stereotyping Goths or members of other subcultures, they can somehow feel safer and good about themselves. "Just stay away from these types of people and all will be well," they think to themselves.

Still, human beings are tribal by nature. When an alleged member of any sub culture we do not understand does something wrong, it's very easy to stigmatize that entire subculture. It happens without even thinking. The problem is, that the media in particular, is guilty of demonizing an entire subculture--you know, guilt by association, without even attempting to get a balanced story or learn about that culture; in this case, Goths. This is the source of public fear.

Why do the media, as well as religious and political leaders, demonize Marylin Manson and not Stephen King; or Vincent Price for that matter? Who knows? But I've long understood that as far as mainstream society is concerned, it often likes the art but not the artist who produced it.

The best thing we can do is interact with mainstream people in a way that leaves them with a positive impression. Nothing will erode their fear faster.

Anonymous said...

The columbine shooters were actually two kids that were bullied severely their entire school careers, and they never received help from anyone against it. From what is known now, the two kids just finally snapped and became violent. The violence and terror that these two caused is the reason the anti-bullying campaign has been stepped up over the years here in the states, not to mention the recent rash of suicides over the years due to anti-gay bullying. For the most part, as long as your not in a rural part of the country or what is known as the bible belt the anti-goth sentiment seems to have faded.

(Even though this is completely off topic, I've been searching for info and clothes for the pregnant goth and I can't seem to find much. Any ideas?)

[Overly lengthy post :S]

Toxic Tears said...

I have to wonder if the attacker wore a tracksuit would the headlines be "TRACKSUIT MURDERER" or if they listened to classical music would it be "THE CLASSICAL MUSIC KILLER". Why is the fact that these people are APPARENTLY goth so important? It doesn't happen with anything else.

Anonymous said...

What about the goths who DO commit horrendous crime though? im a non-goth. But my sister is one. Shes lovely. Would never hurt a fly. But we've had this group of self-described "goths" harrasseing our family for about 2 years now. They even went as far as to descicrate our grandfarther (whos a war veteran) grave by taking photos of themselves posing on it then smashing it to pieces with a sledgehammer then sending the photos to our facebooks.

I'm not writing this to say all gothics are like this because I know they arent being around my sister. But dont act like some distubred/gothic people dont attempt to do this sort of thing ever. In my area, for example. Is over-run my these "disturbed poser" types. They harrass anyone who questions there credability (like my sister) and more and more "newbies" fall into their trap way of thinking. My sister, my family and I will be moving towns soon because this has become so out of control and we frequently fear for our safetly

sorry for typos english is not my first language

Toxic Tears said...

There are if course some goths who commit crimes, but almost every REAL goth is peaceful and would never do these things.

You have to remember - Just because these kids call themselves goth doesn't mean they ARE goth.

There are a lot of kiddies who listen to Marilyn Manson and pretend to worship satan while bragging about how goth they are. In reality, Marilyn Manson's music is not goth. Even if his style is sometimes quite goth, his music is not, and Satanism has shit all to do with how goth you are.

Regina Zee said...

@Anon:
First of all, I'm very sorry to hear that something like this is happening to your family! Have you informed the police about this?

Second of all, the point here isn't that NO goths NEVER commit any crime EVER, rather that committing crimes does NOT depend on what people wear, the music they listen to or the label they [or the media] give themselves.

People can be criminals [or just mentally disturbed enough to harm others] whether they're goths, punks, "chavs"/"jocks", girls in sundresses or suit-wearing businessmen.
The fact these crimes are being blamed on the fact that these people are "goths" is not only wrong, but also baseless, is what we're trying to say.

Tenebris In Lux said...

I'll probably get my butt whipped for this, but .. the Columbine shooters were NOT EVEN Marilyn Manson fans. They didn't like his music. And I've noticed that you mentioned this in other posts.

Sorry about that x-P

But yeah .. that's horrifying o_o

Tenebris In Lux said...

^and also, cannabis doesn't always make individuals do such extreme and bizarre behavior. While I do not do this, I know others who do it (not Goth, but just a musician that I know personally) and when he's stoned, well .. he calls himself a "stoned zombie" :-P

Malice said...

It saddens me that this has happened so close to home, I live only about 20 miles away from Snohomish. I was over there just the other day, actually. I think that if I wasn't in the office today I would have heard about it sooner; granted, I'm not a huge fan of the news because its so depressing. I will mourn the loss of another young life. :(

ultimategothguide said...

Anon the First - 1. I'm not saying that cannabis caused these crimes because I don't think it did, I just think it's interesting that the media overlooks the drug use involved in such cases in favour of blaming it on involvement with Goth, which is even less likely to be the cause for the crime.

2. I'm sure there are some that do, but those who 'like' violence tend not to be accepted by the Goth community as a whole.

Anon the Second - I agree with what Toxic Tears and Regina Zee said. First I think it's unlikely that these idiots are what most of the community would actually consider 'real' Goths, and secondly whether they are or not, my point wasn't that NO Goths commit crimes EVER, in fact I have pointed out in the third paragraph of the post that a minority of Goths DO. I second what Regina said; have you contacted the police?

Tenebris - edited. Sorry bout the mistake. A user that I knew did go through some very extreme changes in personality, becoming an unpleasant person to the point that my boyfriend and I basically shut him out of our lives; however I believe he was drinking heavily at the time as well and there may have been other factors. I expect that it affects different people differently...? Anyway, as above, not intending to blame cannabis, just trying to point out that if the media were going to jump all over a single contributing factor in these cases, why pick Goth over drug use?

Lucy said...

I've never understood why if one individual labelled by the media as 'Goth' commits a crime, all Goths are seen as criminals. People who aren't Goths commit more crimes, but is the mainstream labelled as violent?

Toxic Tears said...

@Lucy - Exactly. If a dog bites your hand, do you kill every dog?

Also

"but .. the Columbine shooters were NOT EVEN Marilyn Manson fans. They didn't like his music."

THIS! I meant to mention that myself. I did a project in school about it all and they said they disliked Manson and preferred bands such as Rammstein. So its EXTRA unfair manson was blamed for it all.:P

I believe the media blamed him because he has a song titled "Get your Gunn" . What the media failed to realised is the second N in Gun, referring to the murder of Doctor Gunn who was murdered by activists who claimed to be "Pro-life".

Yeahh. lol

Nightwind said...

Here's the converse of this discussion and some of you have likely heard of this case.

In my state, and I do live in the Bible Belt, three teenagers between the ages of 16 and 18 were accused of the murder of three eight-year-old boys; this, in spite of the lack of any direct evidence. The police stated that the killings were "cult murders" because one of the teens allegedly had an interest in the occult.

Their conviction came in 1994. The oldest was given the death penalty and the other two were given life sentences.

Over the years, the state blocked the defense's request to introduce DNA evidence that it believed would acquit the three. Finally, that evidence was allowed and it absolved the West Memphis Three, as they were called, of the crime.

This past August the three men, now in their 30s, were released from prison, but in order to allow the prosecutors to save face, had to admit to the crime and admit that the state had enough evidence to convict them. One didn't want to do it but went along because he knew that his friend could be executed without the guilty plea of all. Still, pleading guilty would likely destroy the lives of these three men as it would be difficult to find employment as convicted murderers. Also, as a condition of their release they would not be allowed to associate with one another. I do believe that the latter condition has been revoked however.

So why were those three teenagers accused of the murders in the first place? Basically, their lives were destroyed because as teens they dressed in black and were known to listen to metal music. Apparently, that's a heinous crime in some parts of the Bible Belt.

Unlacing the Victorians said...

"I'm willing to bet that, though she may describe herself as such, though she may wear black clothes and make-up, we'll discover she's either ignorant of genuine Goth culture or unaccepted by the friendly, polite, harmless group of local Goths because of bizarre posturing or behaviour. "

Or she is a "true Goth" lives in a small town without a supportive Goth community. Or she's a "true Goth" who just went nutzo. Her mode of dress being, of course, not a direct correlation to her violent actions.

It's strange that the cannabis use wasn't as much the main focus in some of the other cases you mentioned. Especially since heavy cannabis use has been known to cause erratic behavior in people with mental disorders, especially those who suffer from bipolar disorder.

Kitty Lovett; The Unadulterated Cat said...

The only thing I have to say is please, please kids - do not, ever, take drugs - especially not pot. It is not a safe drug, regardless of what people tell you, and it turns regular people into psychopaths. I know. I have been there. If you smoke pot, please get help. You are only harming yourself. You will not "be fine". You will end up in hospital, suffering near-constant hallucinations.

Any drug - including cannabis - causes severe brain trauma. I have seen perfectly wonderful people turn into maniacs on the drug, including a family friend, who my sister saw have an axe put through his head due to drug-induced "this-is-a-fucking-awesome-idea" syndrome. It isn't a "personal choice". You will affect everyone around you.

Sorry for that rant, but Amy knows how strongly I feel on the topic of drug use.

FleaStiff said...

Luke Mitchell did not kill Jodi Jones. He was not particularly a fan of Marilyn Manson, having merely received a CD of his as a gift about one week after the murder. Neither Jodi nor Luke were Satanic in any way. The so-called Satanic phrase scribbled on his notebook is from the largest selling computer game in the UK and indicates nothing more than how boring his school was. Luke Mitchell was observed sitting on a fence at the time of the murder waiting for Jodi in a calm manner with no dirt, blood or sweat on him or his clothing.

FleaStiff said...

Four separate males were identified as having their dna found in, on or inconveniently close to Jodi Mitchell's corpse, Luke Mitchell was not one of them. None of those four were arrested or considered suspects by the police including the man who claims he was performing a solitary act in the woods in the rain while utilizing a condom.

ultimategothguide said...

FleaStiff - have no idea where you're getting this info as can't find it in any articles on the case, but all right, have edited the Luke Mitchell section. Apologies for any offense caused.

Anonymous said...

Hi ultimategothguide, could I please ask, when you have some free time, to check out Luke Mitchells official caseblog. There was no dna, no witnesses, no evidence whatsoever to link Luke Mitchell with the murder of his girlfriend Jodi Jones. Luke and Jodi were not goths, however the media tells a different story. Luke was not a heavy cannabis user, there was minimal traces of cannabis in his system when tested hours after the murder, however the media tells a different story. He did not worship satan, his scribbles on his school jotters came from video games, though the media would have us believe different. The arrest and conviction of Luke Mitchell is one of the worst miscarriage of justice cases in Scotland I have ever had the misfortune to know about. The killer of Jodi Jones is still at liberty. The murder investigation was a total sham. SPERM, SALIVA, HAIRS, SEMEN, and BlOOD were found on the body or on the victims clothes. NONE of which belonged to Luke Mitchell. Here is the link that I refer to -

http://caseblog.wronglyaccusedperson.org.uk/luke-mitchell-is-innocent/

There is also a chat forum available which has plenty of facts related to the case. There is a no proof, no print policy. If you would like to join in I am sure the members would make you very welcome.
http://forum.wronglyaccusedperson.org.uk/series-on-cases-from-sandra-leans-book-no-smoke/luke-mitchell-wrongly-convicted-of-murder/10125/

P.S. I have enjoyed reading your blog which I have found to be very intersting and will pop back now and again. Keep up the good work. x

Anonymous said...

My mum heard something about some crime in France that mentions goths, I realy don't know the details.

Great post by the way!

ultimategothguide said...

Anonymous1 - sure, will do. Thanks for the information, sounds as though there's more to this than people are generally aware of regardless of whether the people involved were Goth or not, which is a real shame for a country with a free media.

MistressOfTheDecay said...

Murder happens fairly often... Most of the time by people who don't wear black and anything the media perceives as Goth. But they do not shun all non-Goths, now do they? It seems to me many people are merely ignorant... Not to be unkind, but it's true...
Lovely post!

Kitty Lovett; The Unadulterated Cat said...

"half of you inbred, lace wearing fucktards have about as much clue about what goth means as you have about what the touch of a woman feels like."

Being a bisexual female, I probably have more of a clue than you do, honey.

Seriously, what happened - get your dick caught in a meat grinder?

TropigothMama said...

"loser teenagers on blogs wanking over pictures of heavily clothed women flouncing around in graveyards."

Oh, that's me all right. You caught me. I'm not a happily married mother living in the tropics raising my child to have a love of art and music and the darkly beautiful.
I'm a pimply-faced teenager in my parents' basement jerking off to "Goths in Trees".

My goodness. >.<

The Green Fairy said...

I'm an asexual female in her 20s, both graveyards and the bodies of women scare me...

...So this must mean

*fap fap fap*

Gah my lace doodle-sock is giving me friction burn!

-.- You're a fucktard.

Xanthy said...

Dear Anon,
your who/whom argument makes no sense, since "whom" is slowly becoming obsolete. Seriously, English professors at my university don't even care about that...
On top of that, correcting someone's grammar (especially something as insignificant as that) makes you sound like an ass, rendering the rest of your argument invalid.

Anonymous said...

there comes a point when you're literally just deleting the things i say because i'm disagreeing with you. bit kim jong-il, isn't it?

ultimategothguide said...

Post your argument politely and I'm happy to leave it up. Calling me or my followers 'fucktards' is obviously rude and will be deleted. Just be civil - it's really that simple.

Anonymous said...

still a bit kim jong-il.
my point was that you stretch the parameters of goth on this blog to the extent that anyone can be goth. however, the instant a violent crime is committed you no longer consider these people goth. very selective.
civil or not, it still stands that your 'followers' (bit much, maybe?) couldn't answer my question. focusing only on the fact that i might have been a tiny bit confrontational. your followers were just as derisive to me, but that's totally cool, right?
and it's who, not whom. seriously. pronouns.

ultimategothguide said...

Yes. Manners are the same as dictatorship, clearly.

No, not 'anyone' is automatically Goth if they say they are. Belonging to a subculture requires slightly more than wishful thinking, e.g. some knowledge of the music, fashion, etc.

No, I personally don't consider these people Goth because none of them seem to have any knowledge of the music or culture that is the backbone of the scene - if you show me an example of a genuine member of the Goth scene - NOT just some angsty kid wearing a black T-shirt - who has comitted a violent crime then fair enough. As many of the comments above have already explained, there are more than likely a minority of Goths who do commit these sorts of crimes but they haven't made it into the press for whatever reason. The point I was trying to make was that it's unfair to judge an entire subculture based on the actions of a minority.

(Followers, just for your information, is shorthand for 'people who FOLLOW your blog', so no, I wouldn't say it's 'a bit much'.)

A TINY bit confrontational? No, you weren't. You were incredibly rude. And frankly yes, I do feel it's 'totally cool' for my friends to defend themselves against remarks such as 'inbred fucktards', if you had a problem with that then there was no need to post them in the first place, especially since most of them were totally irrelevant to the point you're trying to make.

And you are right about the who/whom thing, my mistake.

Kitty Lovett; The Unadulterated Cat said...

I'm just going to come out and say it - you THINK you're being hilarious, being a "troll", probably get together with your other fourteen-year-old friends for a good ole game of CoD, but here it is - you are not a troll. You are not anonymous. You are not special or funny or smart. You don't know what Goth is either.

As for "dem's ur followerz LOL UR KIM JONG IL" firstly, KJI died. Secondly, you don't know anything about whatever it is you're trying to say, and thirdly, I'm not amy's "follower". I'm a follower of her blog, and I'd like to consider her and I pretty damn good friends.

Distinctly enough, she's also not a giant wanker. 'least not in public. In any case, you're accusing someone of talking out of their ass, while you yourself are talking more shit than I've ever seen outside of Rapture Ready.

For another point, a lot of Amy's followers are young people, whether "troo goff" or not, with severe health problems. Is it such a horrible thing that they all get together, share something that they can all relate to and take a break from some pretty terrible problems?

I for one salute Amy "Kim Jong Il" T. Blogger and yes, I will be calling her this for the rest of her life.

ultimategothguide said...

Kitty, I love you. <3

Anonymous said...

while i know asking is probably a moot point, if you're so sure in your convictions that you're right, why are you so unwilling to respond or even leave the comments up so other people can see?

i'm not being rude, i'm not even really being confrontational. you've got a comments section as an open forum for discussion but you're not letting any discussion take place unless it is completely positive.
i'm glad about the "babybat" thing though. nice one.

Kitty Lovett; The Unadulterated Cat said...

I did, in fact, see what you said. And to be honest, I know why she deleted them. Because it's - and i know this must be hard for you to understand - HER blog. Where she can do whatever the bloody hell she likes, post what she wants and delete things that might upset people. Plus she's probably bloody sick of getting emails about it.

Yes, I made "grave assumptions". On purpose. Because you were doing it too. Doesn't feel nice, does it?

We're not countering anything you say, because you're, firstly, attacking Amy personally, and secondly, when you aren't, you're saying things that are so stupid that my brain promptly has to forget it so as to not liquify and leak out my ears.

As for the "Unadulterated Cat" comment, "The Unadulterated Cat" is a novella by Terry Pratchett, my favourite author. It is also a running joke about me and cats, one that you won't understand, since you don't belong to the community, and thus pointing out my username (while you yourself are posting anonymously - your mother must be proud) is stupid.

I brought up the fact a lot of kids here are sick because you're attacking a blog that makes them feel a part of something. It's important for them to feel that way, especially for the ones like, say, me who can't always go out and see friends.

You're being a huge wanker, my love, and attacking Amy personally. Don't know why, because it bores her.

Anonymous said...

be a dear and leave up the one directed at kitty as well. i have just as much right to defend my point as she has to oppose it. i was nothing but civil in that.

ultimategothguide said...

Because other people already made the same point you made about the original post, it's already been discussed. Your opinions about ME are entirely irrelevant to the actual topic and as such I see no point in posting them.

If you looked around on other posts you'll see that there is plenty of open discussion - in fact if you read the comments on this very same post you'll see that not everyone agrees with me. I have simply left their comments up and not yours because they are able to state a difference of opinion without being rude.

I don't see why a discussion of whether or not 'no one would think you are a real Goth based on your last.fm' is revelant to this post...?

Anonymous said...

it was relevent because it tied into the whole "goth is whatever you want it to be" thing, and therefore i made the point that the media was just going on the basis that the girl in question was their view of what goth was bla bla bla, i dont remember. i could explain it better, had you not deleted it.

it's not about you and its not (just) about this post. it's about the whole blog. i've not been being rude. i'll accept that the first comment i posted was confrontational. the rest not so much.

also, deleting my posts and selectively replying to the ones you don't delete isn't really fair. if you're so sure in your convictions, you'd respond to me properly.

ultimategothguide said...

No I wouldn't, I have better things to do with my life.

Dalestair Kidd said...

I believe that's Goth Babes 1 - Anon Losers Nil.

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